Curse

Chicken Ftw · Jun 30, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

I played in a group with 2 word of healing monks yesterday and I died several times even when they had 4 seconds to heal me. There are many bad players with "good" builds.

With my monk I've tested a heal/prot build with mark of protection some days ago and it works great... got kicked from a group when I told my build. That's really annoying and damn stupid from those people.

And I want to reanimate a smiting monk, but try find a group as smiter^^
0% chance, not even 1% chance.

That really suck. I hate that behavior.

I totally agree with the op, something has to be changed.

What, somehow Anet can stop players from sucking and being idiots? That'd be nice (bye touch ranger nerf topics), but it's not happening. If pugs suck so badly...don't use them. Guild groups or henches ftw.

As far as the problem getting worse... New players = more people = more idiots. Sucks, but CH3 will likely have more than proph and factions combined.

GloryFox · Jun 30, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I believe the attitude level is PvP'rs trying PvE for the first time in Factions. They are predisposed to prejudice in builds because they have lost the concept of role-play and fun. For example, This morning my monk with 1,500,000 xp was kicked from a Group because I showed up with an Animal Companion during the first part of a mini quest on SHING JEA ISLAND. (MIND YOU I COULD HAVE SOLOED IT WITH A WAND!)

I personally find it fun to place Balthzars Aura on my animal companion while casting smite spells. This does not mean I can't keep 3 level 20's alive from a few Yeti's and one Lesser Grasp. Get real people!

bleaho · Jul 01, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Its sad to see that people who like to experiment with different builds have to take slack from others. I've been thru it, and hated it.
There should be dedicated roles for a team, not dedicated builds. Its true that the monk is a healer, but ritualist can heal too! Maybe the ritualist is not as good as the monk, but sometimes its easier to find a ritualist. The group should be looking for a healer, not just a monk!
A lot of the problems come from people that think there is some sort of super build, like the "perfect" tank or the "perfect" healer. Only by experimenting with different builds can you find one that fits your play style.
It helps to have a guild that will run groups with you during experimentation builds. That way you have humans with you, plus they know you are experimenting (and often, they are as well) and if you can talk to them and find out what they thought of your new build, or how they liked the new skills.
I used to think that as a monk, Orison of Healing was a great spammer skill. But, after trying out a new skill, Healing Whisper, and letting my guildmates know, a lot of the monks in the guild are switching over and trying it out.
I know I'm rambling a bit, but don't get discouraged! After all, you might just come across the new "build of the week". If you are looking for a guild, check us out. www.shadowpeakknights.com

Silent Kitty · Jul 01, 2006, 10:08 AM // 10:08

The only thing I don't understand is why. Why does a Wammo spams the public chat that he wants a barrager, kick every new 'ranger who isn't one, while the party leader obviously isn't a barrager either. I can understand why parties want a healer or an other support class, but barragers or nukers are no support classes. Give other classes a chance too. Especially since you aren't one of those either.

Evilsod · Jul 01, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by quanzong

Smiting monks in group? Worthless. monks are meant to heal and to protect not to fight. If you want to fight, go make yourself 55 monk.

Tell that to eles who deal less damage than my grandmother does to high level bosses. A single 'Smite' deals more damage than an entire Meteor Shower. A single Balthazaars Aura/Symbol of Wrath/Kirins Wrath combo could deal more damage in 15 seconds than an ele could in 15 minutes to a boss. The irony is if you wanna protect someone... whos tanking. SoJ is actually more effective. Shield of Regen cuts damage in half, Shield of Judgement can cut damage in half from most sources too if they spend most of the time on there arse. Its not hard to balance healing/prot and smiting.

Traveller · Jul 01, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

In PvE builds shouldn't matter. There is NO need for pre-determined Healer/Nuker/Tank - combination or discrimination, because really, if you got good players, even weird builds will succeed. The way Thom describes it, there's one combination of builds that can work, and every other variation must be kicked out from the group.

And as long as this sort of "efficiency" thinking is ruling, there will be no room for any eles except fire, no necros outside SS/MM, no ritualists besides restoration rits, mesmers altogether... the list goes on and on. Think outside the box, peeps.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jul 01, 2006, 12:41 PM // 12:41

The lamest one I believe is that, people don't accept you into party if you are not a warrior or ranger primary for "chest run"!

That usually tick me off. It is a CHEST RUN!!

They would kick you regardless of your primary or secondary.

WasAGuest · Jul 01, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I believe, and this is just my opinion, PuGs and this type of attitude will kill off PuGs and older chapters of the game. As a former long term player of EQ and several other MMOs, older chapters of the games become vacant and dead. Guilds band together to complete the quests and missions in those areas while PuGs have moved on to newer areas.
PuGs rely on cookie cutter google builds due to (as other have said above) ignorance and "what's common".
Anet's idea of keeping henchies dumb to "force" players to group up together will eventually kill the game (IMO) as players (such as those voicing their opinions here) will get sick of standing around trying to get into or starting a group with a non-cookie cutter builds. Add to that, areas becoming more and more empty as more chapters come out.
Lots of new players joining would make up for empty areas? Not so. Anet has 2 million copies of GW (the franchise) sold, not Factions. That means that Prophesies owners have invested into Factions. Yes some new players have joined but some have also left. I personally know 12 people who quit GW and went back to other online games with the release of Factions for various reasons. By Chapter 3 I would imagine we will see GW report 3 million copies sold.

Yuo Can Do It! · Jul 01, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

"Monks are best at healing/protection over any other role."

Oh, that made me laugh.

Ritualists are on par, or at least a close second to monk healing.
Ritualist protecting (spirit spammers - union, shelter, displacement), can be better than any monk protting.

Why don't you learn more about classes before making such stereotypes.

(I kinda agree with some of the other stuff that you said.)

Curse You · Jul 01, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

I personally play(ed) a SS/Blood necro (very fun and effective build), a Warrior with a pet (all the way to Hell's Precipice), a Water Elementalist (slow effect

), a customised healer monk with Offering of Blood, and a ranger with a vamp weapon as a base.

I personally play strange builds a lot. Most people hardly notice, and in fact sometimes I work better than the other "pre-made" builds. I admit I look at the "googled" builds, but only for specific things. If I want to farm (hardly do), I might look up a good solo build. Other times I just look at aspects and then use the parts I know work well to make a build for what I want.

I have also been in parties with strange builds. I did Raisu Palace with 3 restoration Ritualists (not monks) and we still got Expert's reward (one lost connection, which slowed us)

As for smitting monks (most overlooked build), they have many uses (The Undead Hordes

), but it's just that more often there is a need for healer and protection monks. I have seen towns and outposts where there are up to 4 or 5 groups of six people all saying "Group LF monks". This just seems to be due to a pure lack of monks where they're needed (ever go to Elona Reach?). It seems more than half the monk population of the game is 55hp farmers, half of whom are bots (again Elona Reach).

Ken Dei · Jul 01, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Individuals are smart, people are stupid.

Sure, anyone can come into this thread and say this or that, but at the end of the day the same mentality will continue to pervade the game. Why?

Because we're mostly preaching to the choir here. We KNOW this behavior is stupid. But you know where the people who don't think that are? They're in game farming and being stupid.

What needs to be done is to take this arguement in game to all the cities and discuss it there, where it can't be avoided. But to do that A.Net needs to deal with the WTS spam.

Carth` · Jul 01, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

And I want to reanimate a smiting monk, but try find a group as smiter^^
0% chance, not even 1% chance.

It is due to demand. If a party needs monks, they need someone to keep them alive. A smiter won't do that. The fact is monks can be rare, the thing I most often see is "need 2 monks 6/8". Is that team looking for a smiter? Obviously not.

But it's not impossible for smiters, certainly not 0% chance. When there is an abundance of monks, the smiters can play. The other day I was in a mission, and we had 4 monks, with others trying to join. It was really weird, like everyone decided to play their monk that day. So the party leader asked one of the monks to go smiting, and that monk did far better than any ele could have done. It was a challenge mission, and we got a record amount of amber which we coudn't beat once some of the monks left and the remaining monks had to go back to healing.

Edit: the other massively overlooked role - or should I say class - in PvE is the mesmer. I don't know why people refuse them (trust me, I am really trying to finish Prophecies with my mesmer, but it isn't easy to get in a group). The times when there is a mesmer in the party, I am genuinely happy because the truth is, they do make it easier! The reason why people don't think they do, is because so much of what the mesmer does goes unnoticed, no matter how much it benefits the team. The exception maybe is interrupts, people can at least see that.

Recently I've seen a few "yay a mesmer" when one joins a PUG, so obviously some people do value them.

Cybah · Jul 01, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I value them a lot too. I've beaten the boss at boreas alone cause all other ppl were not able to interrupt.

But there are many situations where mesmers are just great.

empathy, cry of frustration, clumsiness ftw (clumsiness does more dmg than a +40 hit by warrior and interrupts... I love it, even caster mobs will attack and get the damage, so damn nice.)

Bleidd · Jul 01, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

It is due to demand. If a party needs monks, they need someone to keep them alive. A smiter won't do that. The fact is monks can be rare, the thing I most often see is "need 2 monks 6/8". Is that team looking for a smiter? Obviously not.

I agree with what you're saying, however the problem is just that. Two monks (as healers or healer/protector) aren't necessary in any PvE mission. That can be said for any other profession. The problem is with the mindset, that X can only be accomplished by A + B + C.

ElinoraNeSangre · Jul 01, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kern Wolf

It really doesn't bother me if they're trying a new build, or a new skill (quite frankly, most of the time I'm curious to see their new builds myself!) I'm about having fun; I have a day job, so I don't need stress in a game...

This sums up my feeling.

I don't care if people want minion masters - they can want what they want, it's their group. But *not all Necros are minion masters* nor do they necessarily want to be. Don't blind invite people then get annoyed when they're not what you were looking for.

Myself, I like groups that don't try to fit a template - I've had a lot more fun with a lighthearted group who is here to have fun than a group who is going to chew other people out for how they cast their spells.

And yes, I agree - being in a good guild is a great way to get around the problem (my guild is super nonjudgemental - they're casual players and just like to have fun). If anyone ever want to play with someone who cares more about someone's ability to use what they've got over what's in their skillbar, you know where I am. Defy the norm!

-Eli/Kel

ps-and I always welcome Mesmers in a group.

Zinger314 · Jul 01, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

I stereotype against W/Mos (who aren't runners). Why?

Almost every W/Mo I've played with has NO CLUE.

They either cast Mending on themselves (+6 HP/sec, woohoo) and/or spam Sever Artery/Gash and/or have no defensive skills whatsoever

I rarely meet W/Mo with skills like Gladiator's Defense or Purge Conditions. Just an FDS and no hope.

Also, I'm sure everyone knows that W/Mo tend to be the ones who call people "n00bs" and explicit insults. It's true.

As long as people follow their role, and follow it well, I'm happy.

Other classes, I'm...slightly more tolerant about in PvE. If I see a Nuker using Fire Storm, for example, it won't end pretty.

Tingi · Jul 01, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuo Can Do It!

Oh, that made me laugh.

Ritualists are on par, or at least a close second to monk healing.
Ritualist protecting (spirit spammers - union, shelter, displacement), can be better than any monk protting.

Why don't you learn more about classes before making such stereotypes.

(I kinda agree with some of the other stuff that you said.)

Do not agree. Ritualist are pretty bad healing compared to monk, HOWEVER, i agree with the protting part. They are very good at it especially in PvP, but a bonder is usually better.

TheLordOfBlah · Jul 01, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

i had a Mo/E in a group for Borlis Pass the other day. I was a nuker. They werent healing, instead they were using all elementalist spells... Well what the hell thats exactly what I was doing, dont invite a nuker if you're going to nuke. If you're going to use all skills from your secondary, might as well go primary. Also if a group says LF healer, and youre a Mo/E NUKER, well, im expectin you to heal so of course im going to kick you.

If you're making a N/R with a bow... might as well make a R/w.e so you dont confuse people. Same goes for anything else... unless it requires the primary attribute.

Thom · Jul 01, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuo Can Do It!

Oh, that made me laugh.

Ritualists are on par, or at least a close second to monk healing.
Ritualist protecting (spirit spammers - union, shelter, displacement), can be better than any monk protting.

Why don't you learn more about classes before making such stereotypes.

(I kinda agree with some of the other stuff that you said.)

Learn to read:
"Monks are best at healing/prot over any other role"
NOT "Monks are the best at healing/prot over any other profession."

Ritualist can heal too in most PvE situations, but that isn't what I was saying. The role the monks perform best is healing. Even in GvG smite builds, your monks are filling a healing role as well as a pressure role.

Traveller: You totally missed my point. While there is no "NEED" for a specific build if you have reasonably good players, you don't normally get reasonably good players in PvE PuGs. If a leader wants to put together a build to create some synergies to speed things up, that should be respected. If I am leading a group, I have every right to decide its functional makeup. Leaders don't make decisions because they hate people, they just want to get things done quickly and efficiently.

Makosi: This isn't about intrinsic traits of individuals it is about their roles on a team. Would you call a football coach a "racist" if a fullback insisted on playing halfback? Would I be a bigot if I didn't want an electrician to install my plumbing? Leave serious real world issues out of this since it doesn't apply. We are talking about professions, so our best real world comparison is unemployed industrial workers (steelworkers). No one thinks that people hate steelworkers, since people realize their simply isn't a place for the in the economy at the moment. Just as steelworkers are retraing, some people should just reroll if getting into a particular group is important too them.

CyberNigma · Jul 02, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Character Classes have always been some sort of stereotype, at least at a general level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A character class represents a character's archetype and career in some role-playing games (RPGs). Usually, players choose their class when they create their character and may not completely part from that class during the life of that character.

Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) introduced the usage of classes, and they are now found in all games which use the d20 system. They are also found in many computer and videogame RPGs.

There may some customized sub-types, but the class system in any game is in itself a stereotype, otherwise you'd have a non-class structure such as GURPS or Ultima Online.